The Lion

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SamGB
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The Lion

Postby SamGB » Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:37 pm

The Lion


Revelation 5:5
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.


Who's coming was prophesied by Jacob:

Genesis 49:9
Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up? The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. Binding his foal unto the vine, and his as's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:


Shiloh being the first house of God and a prophesy of Christ's first coming:

Jeremiah 7:12
But go ye now unto my place which was in Shiloh, where I set my name at the first, and see what I did to it for the wickedness of my people Israel.


Thus it is written:

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.



C.S. Lewis wrote a book called The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe that was published in 1950. Time magazine included the novel in its "All-TIME 100 Novels" from 1923 to 2005. The pivotal part of the story can be found on wikipedia:

The Witch approaches to speak with Aslan, insisting that, according to "deep magic from the dawn of time", she has the right to execute Edmund as a traitor. Aslan speaks with her privately and persuades her to renounce her claim on Edmund's life. That evening, Aslan secretly leaves the camp, but is followed by Lucy and Susan. Aslan has bargained to exchange his own life for Edmund's. The Witch ties Aslan to the Stone Table and then kills him with a knife. The following morning the Stone Table is broken and Aslan is restored to life, explaining to Lucy and Susan that it is due to "deeper magic from before the dawn of time" (which the Witch did not know about), ruling that if an innocent was killed in the place of a traitor, the Stone Table would break and the innocent would be brought back to life.

The lion appears familiar but notice that it is magic that brings this lion back to life.

Deuteronomy 18:10
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.


Don't be deceived, this is in contrast to Jesus who was raised by the power of God on the 3rd day.

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


1 Corinthians 6:14
And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.


Unlike with Aslan and the Witch there is no agreement between Christ and Satan.

2 Corinthians 6:15
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?


In the last of the Chronicles of Narnia books, The Last Battle published in 1956 we find out that the lion that was raised by magic proclaims a different gospel to that found in the Bible:

From Wikipedia (FYI: Tash is a demon and Aslan is the lion):
Emeth, who expects Tash to smite unbelievers with heavenly fire, goes searching for Tash in Aslan's Country, but instead meets Aslan. It is revealed that Aslan and Tash are opposites, with each existing as the antithesis to the other. Aslan tells Emeth that 'all the service thou hast done to Tash, I accept as service done to me' and further explains that 'no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him'. He explains that Emeth's pious devotion, because it was rooted in a love of justice and truth, was really to Aslan rather than to Tash, although Emeth had not been aware of this; Emeth finds great happiness in this revelation.

There are multiple false doctrines here. Firstly Aslan implies that it is the service or works of Emeth that have saved him. In contrast the bible tells us:

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.


Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


Philipeans 3:8-9
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


Secondly Aslan says that he accepts the service of Emeth to Tash as service to himself. This leads the reader to believe that there are different ways to salvation other than through the blood of Jesus Christ.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Remember what Paul warned us about in Galatians:

Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.


So who is the lying Lion?

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Last edited by SamGB on Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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launcher
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Re: The Lion

Postby launcher » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:35 pm

sounds like they use peagan type ideas to explain jesus and god?

i still believe this quote belongs in the old testement. well all of it anyways...
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."
AllyOmega
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Re: The Lion

Postby AllyOmega » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:11 am

I think you're reading into it too much. C.S. Lewis didn't mean to make a one-to-one parallel of Aslan and Christ. The Narnia series has Christian themes, but it's not a theology book. He took some liberties to make the world of Narnia a traditional fantasy world.

I think it's easy to see that if you're getting your doctrine from a children's fantasy book, you're doing it wrong.
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Re: The Lion

Postby SamGB » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:39 pm

launcher wrote:sounds like they use peagan type ideas to explain jesus and god?

i still believe this quote belongs in the old testement. well all of it anyways...
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."

Launcher has provided an excellent example of what I'm talking about. At first glance what he wrote looks like the Bible however upon closer examination we find critical differences. A small part of the quote appears to be based upon Ezekial 25:17 however its not the Bible its from Pulp Fiction and it represents the lying lion with a false gospel.

Revelation 22:18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
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launcher
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Re: The Lion

Postby launcher » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:48 pm

:lol: have to admit wrong or right that sums up the old testment very well that line. of basically protect the good and evil gets wiped out.

you could make the case Dune rips off Islam with some intresting and messed up twists to it :) and in the end the christians win, not only changing things but taking what would be the antichrists spawn, breeding with them, and reaserting christian ideals over them, destroying the antichrist through his kids) dune the minsieries is a must watch if you can.
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CPUFreak91
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Re: The Lion

Postby CPUFreak91 » Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:36 pm

AllyOmega wrote:I think you're reading into it too much. C.S. Lewis didn't mean to make a one-to-one parallel of Aslan and Christ. The Narnia series has Christian themes, but it's not a theology book.
I agree. It's a story meant for fun. It has themes and characters that hail back to the bible, but Lewis was not trying to create a new belief system. There's no Church of the Latter Day Narnia.

Besides who would want to read a book series that's almost an exact copy of the Bible, just presented in a different format? That's just boring...

SamGB: It seems to me that you haven't read any of C.S Lewis' actual theology books. Am I right?
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SamGB
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Re: The Lion

Postby SamGB » Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:59 pm

C.S. Lewis believed in Taoism as you can discover by reading The Abolition of Man (btw it looks really boring). He believed it to be a universal umbrella that includes all religions including his version of christianity. Taoism meaning 'the path' teaches the Yin-Yang principle: balance or harmony can be found by mixing good with evil, darkness with light or male with female. This is the esoteric meaning behind the Yin-Yang symbol: the circle represents Tao - the undifferentiated Unity out of which all of existence arises. The black and white halves within the circle represent Yin-qi and Yang-qi - the primordial feminine and masculine energies whose interplay gives birth to the manifest world: to the Five Elements and Ten-Thousand Things. Wican's or those who practice witchcraft believe in the same principle.
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launcher
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Re: The Lion

Postby launcher » Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:20 pm

wait wait a story based on the bible is awesome... and would be tons of fun, just needs to be done right.
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CPUFreak91
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Re: The Lion

Postby CPUFreak91 » Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:45 pm

SamGB wrote:C.S. Lewis believed in Taoism as you can discover by reading The Abolition of Man (btw it looks really boring).
So you're quoting something and using it as an argument, but you haven't read it? Shame on you. I have not read The Abolition of Man (but I will start now :P) so cannot argue against you, but you should really read his entire work (to get context) before arguing he's a Taoist. How does it compare to his work, Mere Christianity?

In the mean time, let me quote a well-known journal which discusses C.S Lewis' use of the word "Tao" while I go read The Abolition of Man (you should too):
Lewis goes on to show that this belief [what he calls Tao] is basic to all historical cultures and religions, and its expression found in literature from Aristotle to Shelley, from Plato to Traherne, from Confucius to Coleridge, from the Hindu Upanishads to the Judaic Law, to the Christian Scriptures, to St. Augustine’s City of God, Kant’s Foundations, and Martin Luther King Jr.’s Letter From a Birmingham Jail.
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AllyOmega
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Re: The Lion

Postby AllyOmega » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:56 pm

Basically, all he means by Tao is the belief that morals are objective. Not sure why he uses the word Tao, but that's what he meant by it.
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ArchAngel
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Re: The Lion

Postby ArchAngel » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:34 am

SamGB wrote:C.S. Lewis believed in Taoism as you can discover by reading The Abolition of Man (btw it looks really boring). He believed it to be a universal umbrella that includes all religions including his version of christianity. Taoism meaning 'the path' teaches the Yin-Yang principle: balance or harmony can be found by mixing good with evil, darkness with light or male with female. This is the esoteric meaning behind the Yin-Yang symbol: the circle represents Tao - the undifferentiated Unity out of which all of existence arises. The black and white halves within the circle represent Yin-qi and Yang-qi - the primordial feminine and masculine energies whose interplay gives birth to the manifest world: to the Five Elements and Ten-Thousand Things. Wican's or those who practice witchcraft believe in the same principle.
You have no real idea about this C.S. Lewis guy, do you?
For starters, he's one of the greatest Christian philosopher and apologists and arguably the greatest of our time. But go ahead, ignore the bulk of the facts and misconstrue one tiny statement.

But, as a note, before you start giving a lecture on topics clearly everybody else knows more about than you, do your reading at least. Don't tell us to check your facts in a book you haven't even picked up. Abolition of Man looks boring? Yeah, it might be over your head.
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Lava
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Re: The Lion

Postby Lava » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:15 pm

Arch, while I'm complete agreement that someone should do more reading before making sweeping statements about someone's faith. I do no believe that level of sarcasm was present in this thread prior to your post, nor is it going to stimulate informative discussion and in fact might spark needless uncivil arguments in the future. Especially since you and SamGB are two Christians talking amongst each other. :)
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Re: The Lion

Postby PhoenixFire » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:23 pm

ArchAngel wrote:You have no real idea about this C.S. Lewis guy, do you? For starters, he's one of the greatest Christian philosopher and apologists and arguably the greatest of our time. But go ahead, ignore the bulk of the facts and misconstrue one tiny statement. But, as a note, before you start giving a lecture on topics clearly everybody else knows more about than you, do your reading at least. Don't tell us to check your facts in a book you haven't even picked up. Abolition of Man looks boring? Yeah, it might be over your head.
Hostile much?

I agree with you, but come on, you don't have to beat the guy to death! The points he raised I feel are valid questions. I don't agree with them, but I'm not just gonna attack his intellect because of it!


Also, in regards to this:
SamGB wrote:The lion appears familiar but notice that it is magic that brings this lion back to life.
If the word was anything other than magic, for example, if Aslan had said that it was because of a "deeper power from before the dawn of time?" Would there still be an issue?


*Edit*: Oh, Lava beat me to it. Well said!
And the Lord answered me and said, Write the vision...For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry. Habakkuk 2:2-3
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Re: The Lion

Postby Lava » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:28 pm

PhoenixFire wrote:
*Edit*: Oh, Lava beat me to it. Well said!
Thanks! Same to you.
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ArchAngel
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Re: The Lion

Postby ArchAngel » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:39 pm

Sam's preaching nonsense and there's no opening for rational discourse here at all. He believes this swill because he wants to, not because he was led to it my evidence.

Yes, I wasn't civil, nor did I intend to be. I'm not going to enable this sort of arrogant preaching based on complete ignorance. I held my tongue, or fingers, if you will, but each post just got worse than the one before it, and my diplomacy dike could bear no more. When he was talking about Narnia, I thought he just didn't know much and didn't know how to read literature. So I said nothing. But once he was making blatantly false remarks based on a book he didn't even read, it was clearly a much worse issue. Absolutely I'm hostile to this brand of ignorance. A lack of knowledge can be taught, but not this. This requires a fundamental change in character.

I'm a little disappointed that my rhetoric has offended your sensibilities more than his false preachings.
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launcher
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Re: The Lion

Postby launcher » Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:41 pm

:lol: seriously though dont need to make movies with hidden content... the 10 commandments, the jesus movies, ben hur, noahs arks movies, the sadam and gamorah movies, even toss in cleopatra, and patton. they all did very well, because grounded in fact. i find subliminel messaging offensive, say it or dont, none of this half hearted, unsure sorta hiding what you believe garbage. as youda says do or do not there is no try :lol: its like when a girl is sorta pregnant :P its yes or no... theres no inbetween anwser its a yes or no...
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Re: The Lion

Postby Lava » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:44 pm

ArchAngel wrote:I'm a little disappointed that my rhetoric has offended your sensibilities more than his false preachings.
When did I say I disagreed with the content of your post? And what did your post say that wasn't said already?
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Re: The Lion

Postby samw3 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:07 pm

Let's keep the topic on topic. Back-handed and prejudicial remarks will not be tolerated.

Thanks,

Sam
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Re: The Lion

Postby bugala » Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:44 pm

@Launcher

Well, most of time Jesus was using Parables instead of talking straight. So I could argue that Jesus already brought as example for Narnias etc. sort of.

Although the idea of those Parables was actually to convey the message even better than saying it directly. And you could even say that he actually did say directly, just with parable.
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Re: The Lion

Postby ArchAngel » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:49 pm

I don't mean to derail this thread further, so this will be the last post here I make on this, but I do want to publicly apologize for any personal attacks or insults I made towards SamGB or on any others on this thread. I could have just as easily and assertively made my point without them and it was inappropriate and out of line.
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