Endemia: An experimental Christian-based game idea

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Endemia: An experimental Christian-based game idea

Postby HanClinto » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:01 pm

So as a followup to the "growing weaker" gameplay mechanic thread, I have written up a small storyline that I feel could utilize it effectively.

It's been a while since I seriously undertook trying to write a game storyline / idea, particularly one that attempts to strongly emphasize Christian principles, so I'm fully aware that it will be rough in many places. I look forward to criticism that can help refine it, or help me know if the idea should be thrown out completely.

The initial writeup is here:
Endemia

I'm very interested in knowing how pacing could be properly used in this story to keep it interesting -- I know the game will have hills and valleys, but it's hard to know where to put them, or how large to make them.

Thanks for reading, and I hope to hear your comments and critiques!

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Re: Endemia: An experimental Christian-based game idea

Postby David Lancaster » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:30 am

Very good idea, I would reward the player with new weapons and armor early on to combat the decreasing hp. This is going to be a more difficult game to make fun compared to just an action game because it requires the story to be part of the gameplay mechanic. Awesome idea Clint!
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Re: Endemia: An experimental Christian-based game idea

Postby samw3 » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:53 am

I think this is a fantastic idea! Perhaps there should be an ongoing antagonist than berates him or give him advice that keeps him focused on the world. or.. maybe everyone does that.

It just came to mind that this might come across as promoting suicide. I wonder if there is a way to deal with that mindset.

Still, a fantastic idea, imho.

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Re: Endemia: An experimental Christian-based game idea

Postby HanClinto » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:16 am

Hey David and Sam, thanks so much for the feedback!
David Lancaster wrote:Very good idea, I would reward the player with new weapons and armor early on to combat the decreasing hp. This is going to be a more difficult game to make fun compared to just an action game because it requires the story to be part of the gameplay mechanic.
Yeah, if the character is indeed going to grow weaker, I think we will indeed still have to give the player rewards (or "powerups") of some kind. Just for the imagery (of losing confidence in one's own strength) that I'm trying to convey in the story, I'm not sure that traditional armor and weapons will be what I want to go for, though this does open up interesting opportunities for non-standard weapons (some of what was mentioned in the other thread):
HanClinto wrote:
Mene-Mene wrote:People love options, so if instead of rewarding them with power, one thing you could do is award them with another way to beat their enemy... However, you'll still need it to be a reward.
Excellent -- I'd like to run with this, and I like how you phrased it. This seems to be some of where Charlie was going with it -- we can reward the player with other options. Instead of needing to fight these enemies, perhaps we can give the player a teleportation ability to bypass them, or a musical instrument to lull them to sleep, or a ninja rope to swing over top of them.
So opening up options to the player, and keeping the game fun and interesting and rewarding, but avoiding explicitly boosting one's power, just one's options.

In addition, I'm imagining this as a fairly linear game. As such, we could even build puzzles directly into the game world, such that if you honestly don't have the health to conquer a certain section of enemies, then there is a puzzle that you have to solve, to unleash an avalanche of boulders on them, or sweep them away in a flood, or disguise yourself to sneak past them, or whatever. But build it into the game as a series of specific puzzles. In this way, the game would start out feeling like an open melee game, progress into a puzzle adventure game, and then, once you gain your Home Spirit, you could begin doing combat again (but this time, as more of a "mage").

samw3 wrote:I think this is a fantastic idea! Perhaps there should be an ongoing antagonist than berates him or give him advice that keeps him focused on the world. or.. maybe everyone does that.
Oh interesting. Yeah, I've been trying to think of something like that. If the player realizes that he wants to go home, why is he bothering to continue to fight? What mission could there still be in this world that he would care about enough to fight with all of his heart, up to his dying breath?
samw3 wrote:It just came to mind that this might come across as promoting suicide. I wonder if there is a way to deal with that mindset.
Hrm, yeah -- perhaps that could be a purpose of the overarching quest thing.


Thanks so much for the feedback, guys! I really appreciate you taking the time to read through my story.

I realized that the storyline up on the Wiki hid a number of things from the reader, and so I uploaded some more thoughts that perhaps will clarify some more things, and hopefully give a better vision of the kinds of emotions and moments that I'm imagining being in the game.
Endemia#Rambling_Vision_Overview

Cheers!

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Re: Endemia: An experimental Christian-based game idea

Postby ArchAngel » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:56 am

Wow, I'm a bit blown away. I'm very excited to see what comes out of this.
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Re: Endemia: An experimental Christian-based game idea

Postby JeTSpice » Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:02 pm

haven't had the time yet, but skimming...

mp to hp is cool twist


Maybe there's a wide-spread disease among all the NPCs. it causes ordinary NPCs to react extraordinarily, bringing out their fundamental character. Some are ill, some are not, some will shoot you for food, some will help you. The point at which they turn from ordinary to extraordinary is different for each NPC (when their stress threshold gives way) So, you don't know who's who, who's pretending, etc. So you look for a cure, and you look for a way to be able to "see" who is who.
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Re: Endemia: An experimental Christian-based game idea

Postby tireswing » Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:23 pm

Very interesting and different idea. It's a really cool and innovative idea. I think it will be very challenging to pull it off in a game. I would definitely keep the ingredients to the medicine close-by and easily attained. I would hate to fight through difficult battles and walk all the way back to the doctor, get my cure, and be worse off for it. While curiosity would probably carry the game for a while (especially if the world is interesting), eventually I think the player stops trusting the designer, since every time the player completes a task, he gets weaker.

Now, once the MP is introduced, I really like the idea and can see the game becoming very fun. All of the sudden, you become stronger. Yes, your HP is still reducing, but you trade that strength for a different kind of strength--which is in actuality a superior strength, making it even more fun than when you had superior health.

I look forward to seeing what becomes of this.
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Re: Endemia: An experimental Christian-based game idea

Postby jesblood » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:45 pm

This is the most innovative and brilliant idea I've ever read. Even for secular games, this is quiet original. I like it! And I like the scripture references. As we become weaker he becomes stronger in us. You know you could even change the type of enemies the protaganist fights over the course of his journey. In other words, the enemies in the beginning respond better to physical prowess, however, later as the game progresses the enemies gradually respond better to the spiritual instead. This would begin to make physical attacks meaningless and down right foolish. Just a thought.

"Sometimes I think Christians place too much emphasis on the "salvation moment" or something, and a hard black/white time they can point to when someone is "saved", but I think there is value to viewing it as a continuous, life-long process" - HanClinto

Han you have hit upon a very real truth to what the word actually has to say about our salvation. I don't know if your aware of this but the cross was only the beginning of our salvation, not the end like so many believe. Salvation in our lives isn't complete till after the trial in heaven when the goats are judged to the second death and we unto reward. At that time we will finally be cleaned once and for all when christ pulls out of us all our works in this life, passes them through the fire of judgement, and only that which was christ's work in us will survive. Then and only then will the task charged to christ by the father on our behalf will be fulfilled. We are meant to walk out our salvation to the end of the race. Not to prove it or earn it, but to grow in it through the journey.

Again, love your idea. It's brilliant! God bless you with this game.

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Re: Endemia: An experimental Christian-based game idea

Postby HanClinto » Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:29 pm

Thanks so much for the feedback, everybody! It his ::hugely:: appreciated. Listening to the sermon today at church, I got some expanded ideas (that I'll go into after I respond to your posts).

ArchAngel wrote:Wow, I'm a bit blown away. I'm very excited to see what comes out of this.
Thanks -- if you don't mind me asking, is there anything specific you can point to as the things you see as strong-points (can correspondingly, weak-points)?
JeTSpice wrote:Maybe there's a wide-spread disease among all the NPCs. it causes ordinary NPCs to react extraordinarily, bringing out their fundamental character. ... So you look for a cure, and you look for a way to be able to "see" who is who.
Interesting idea, JeT! I like the twist on the "disease" thing. I must admit, part of the things I'm trying to do with the plot is communicate that this isn't a simple sickness that can be "cured" in a sense, but rather the issue is that we are not home, and we can never be truly "well" in this world -- sanctification will not be complete so long as we still exist here in the body. The closest parallel I can think of here is the way the multiple worlds work in His Dark Materials (Golden Compass), where when you aren't in your home or natural world, you just get sick, and you can't thrive -- it's not a disease that can be "cured" by any other means than by simply going home. The problem is a fundamental difference in who we are, and where we are located.
tireswing wrote:I would definitely keep the ingredients to the medicine close-by and easily attained. I would hate to fight through difficult battles and walk all the way back to the doctor, get my cure, and be worse off for it. While curiosity would probably carry the game for a while (especially if the world is interesting), eventually I think the player stops trusting the designer, since every time the player completes a task, he gets weaker.
Great point -- I'm still toying with this idea, and the more I think about it, the more I'm shying away from how I originally had it. Even so, it may still be worth a play-test.

Right now, my main thought is to have the player's health (and possibly str) still decrease, but give him a big boost in add-ons. Weapons, armor, upgrades, and whatnot. He's asking for a solution to his fundamental health problem, and the solutions that he's being given (armor, weapons, etc), only help so much, and at some point, he has to address the very real fact that he's slowly going down in health, and his house of cards will collapse.

tireswing wrote:Now, once the MP is introduced, I really like the idea and can see the game becoming very fun. All of the sudden, you become stronger. Yes, your HP is still reducing, but you trade that strength for a different kind of strength--which is in actuality a superior strength, making it even more fun than when you had superior health.
Thanks! Yeah -- I really want to focus on that as a crux in the game, and a very critical (and memorable) turning point.

jesblood wrote:You know you could even change the type of enemies the protaganist fights over the course of his journey. In other words, the enemies in the beginning respond better to physical prowess, however, later as the game progresses the enemies gradually respond better to the spiritual instead. This would begin to make physical attacks meaningless and down right foolish. Just a thought.
One of my other friends mentioned another idea similar to this -- I think it's a good one, and you've reinforced it well. We could possibly have different enemies, or perhaps we could just have the same enemies with different sensitivities -- I.E. more or less sensitive to physical or spiritual things (or more or less powerful against them).

jesblood wrote:...the cross was only the beginning of our salvation, not the end like so many believe.
And I guess I might even go so far as to count it as something in the middle -- everything that God does to draw people to Himself -- I count that "pre-saved" time as part of the sanctification process, where people are on the road of salvation, possibly before they are even aware of the way God is working in their lives.
Perhaps that isn't as scriptural, I'm not sure -- though I do know that I don't like the emphasis on the "salvation moment", to the detriment of the sanctification process that follows.

jesblood wrote:Salvation in our lives isn't complete till after the trial in heaven
Right-on! We're definitely on the same page here, and you totally understand what I'm going for then. :) I'm trying to show in a pictoral way how, even when we know the Truth, we will never be truly content or at home until we leave this world. If the whole point of this game could be summed up in a phrase, I think it would be: "This world is not my home."


New thoughts:
Today's sermon passage read through part of James 4. During the reading, this part of verse 4 caught my attention:
Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
Especially thinking about the context of the "two worlds" (World and Home) in Endemia, it got me thinking about how one is hostile to the other. Previously in my designs, I'd only viewed one as being ignorant of the other, and it hadn't made the jump to them actually being enemies.

My latest bathroom book has been 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, and so being inundated with such classical technologies, it brought to mind the idea of the World being represented with steampunk -- very mechanistic, naturalistic, materialistic, and self-reliant. Essentially, they are mechanically-minded transhumanists, who are trying to complete the next step of human evolution through their own ingenuity and strength. As a society, they are very interested in human augmentation through technology -- this means not only Steampunk-style armor and weaponry, but also vehicles and exoskeletons that they view as advancing and evolving humanity.

Sortof a technological Tower of Babel -- trying to reach ascendancy through one's own strength.

Transhumanism carries strong overtones of materialistic atheism, and it makes sense that when our Protagonist (who still needs a name...) has a problem and goes to the local people, that they give him materialistic solutions to what is ultimately an innate, spiritual problem. Their atheistic self-centeredness explains why they would not even think to suggest him an "unnatural" (I.E. solution of the natural World) to fix his problem.


And here we would seek to contrast the sooty, grimy, cluttered technology of World with the unnatural magic of Home. No gears, no pipes, no whirring mechanisms -- clean, smooth, and entirely other-worldly. This is not a Buddhist-style "natural" magic -- the whole point of the magic of Home is that it is natural to Home, but unnatural to World.

We would seek to drive home a sharp contrast here, and, as Sam and I were talking about it, we were imagining a powerful moment, where the protagonist, loaded down with his mechanistic exoskeleton, sheds it like a dragon skin, or a wheelchair that chains and binds him to this world. Once he is freed from the machinery that he's been relying on to help him walk, it is only then that he can begin to truly fly (in either the figurative or literal sense).

Once again, I think we need to be extremely careful to not make this "magic" to be any sort of Buddhist or Druiditic "one with nature" sort of stuff. I don't want the "magic" in this game to be "natural". If anything, the steampunk should be "natural" -- perhaps an iron-core world, where it is in the nature to use such things in this way.

The analogy that came to mind was the negative way "religious luddites" are often portrayed as fearing technology or human progress -- the religious "anti-mutant" zealouts in the atoll of Water World, or the anti-deviance hyper-conservative village elders in Happy Feet. However, I thought that perhaps we could put a twist on that, where in Endemia, the transhumanists of World would be very rejecting (and hostile) to anything "unnatural". There are many opportunities for contrast here, where after the hero finds, and begins to accept his nature of Home, begins to find resistance to his new-found powers, and even comes into conflict with some people who had tried to help him with Steampunk technology in the past. So in that way, we sortof flip the "religious luddite" trope on its head a bit, though we'd have to be careful to not go overboard or dismissing with it. If we get to the point where we actually write a script, I'm toying with the idea of getting a true Transhumanist to help me edit the representations of his views, to make sure they are done accurately, and not dismissed tritely.



BTW, there is an old Christian book I'm remembering that had a similar sense of mechanistic self-reliance -- if someone could help me remember the title, I would much appreciate it. Basically, there was a world that only let the people walk around town at night, when they lit the town with artificial lights. They didn't want any of the True Light, and so tried to rely solely on their own technological abilities (which often broke down).


Hoookay, this post has gone on long enough, but if anyone has actually managed to make it through reading it, I'm very interested in hearing people's feedback and criticisms of it. What (if anything) in specific draws you to the idea, and what do you think are some of the weaknesses of it?


Thanks so much for reading!

In Christ,
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Re: Endemia: An experimental Christian-based game idea

Postby Square Peg » Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:23 am

If you want to highlight the hostility between the world and the spiritual I would say that once the character receives the spiritual power they become shunned by just about everyone. Before people were willing to outfit him with armor and gear at lower costs, they would give him hints and tricks. Now he has really become alien to them, he makes them feel like aware of their shortcomings and they don't want the answer that he is finding.

If you have set times where the players HP decrease it might be an interesting mechanic to have several situations where either a physical or spiritual solution to a problem can be found. After the dilemma the HP of the player will decrease, but depending on which way the player solved the problem the decrease will be less or greater. If they rely on the spiritual their HP would decrease less. Kind of showing how God promises to take care of our needs and sustain us.
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Re: Endemia: An experimental Christian-based game idea

Postby HanClinto » Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:15 am

Hey Square, thanks for the feedback!
Square Peg wrote:If you want to highlight the hostility between the world and the spiritual I would say that once the character receives the spiritual power they become shunned by just about everyone. Before people were willing to outfit him with armor and gear at lower costs, they would give him hints and tricks. Now he has really become alien to them, he makes them feel like aware of their shortcomings and they don't want the answer that he is finding.
I'm still thinking back and forth about whether or not there are a large number of people from Home in World, or whether I should limit the analogy to be individualistic, and only deal with the isolated story of the Protagonist. For the sake of this analogy, I'm not sure that I want everybody to be from Home -- right now I'm leaning towards people from Home being extremely rare, and not trying to make an all-inclusive analogy.
Square Peg wrote:If you have set times where the players HP decrease it might be an interesting mechanic to have several situations where either a physical or spiritual solution to a problem can be found. After the dilemma the HP of the player will decrease, but depending on which way the player solved the problem the decrease will be less or greater. If they rely on the spiritual their HP would decrease less. Kind of showing how God promises to take care of our needs and sustain us.
Neat thought! How about this twist on it?

I'm starting to like the idea of the player's exoskeleton being a "shield" for him, that takes hits and protects him. This armor has its own hit points, and in the HUD, would be displayed below the player's health, as a visual shield, insulating the player's low health.

As the player makes the shift from his physical shield to his spiritual shield, the HUD updates visually to represent in a clear way that the spirit has replaced the mechanical:

http://hanclinto.com/dav/Clint/Endemia/ ... althLg.png[/thumb]

--clint
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Re: Endemia: An experimental Christian-based game idea

Postby Realm Master » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:23 pm

Adressing a few things I notice while skimming along the posts.
In the terms of going to doctors and being worse off, maybe don't have the character be "turned away" so to speak. It might be cool or interesting if instead of numerous get-me-this-and-that side-quests for each doc (Ala-Assasins creed... kinda) have each doctor point him in a useful direction. Say, after examination, a doctor can offer hints to his past "Well now, this looks interesting... it appears that you have...." Or "You seem to posses the ability..." etc. Or send him to another doctor, or something along those lines.
maybe.

And I do like the game idea... but the disease is what caught my attention. You're still fleshing everything out... but For some reason I want to know more about the disease he has. Would that function in gameplay? Is it congageous, or selective? Is there ever a cure of sorts? Is it a kind of analogy to sin, or am I doing what estute college professors love doing: Over-thinking?
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Re: Endemia: An experimental Christian-based game idea

Postby HanClinto » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:45 pm

Realm Master wrote:In the terms of going to doctors and being worse off, maybe don't have the character be "turned away" so to speak. It might be cool or interesting if instead of numerous get-me-this-and-that side-quests for each doc (Ala-Assasins creed... kinda) have each doctor point him in a useful direction.
Great point -- I think I'm definitely leaning more in this direction now. Basically, right now I'm conceiving of the doctors not seeking to fix the cause of his malady, but seeking to improve his condition through augmentation -- "low health you say? Well here, take this armor, take this backpack, take this exoskeleton", and the current thought is to do so in a very steampunk-ish sort of way, with mechanisms and whirring things. And acquiring these attachments would almost certainly be side-quests.

Realm Master wrote:And I do like the game idea... but the disease is what caught my attention. You're still fleshing everything out... but For some reason I want to know more about the disease he has. Would that function in gameplay? Is it congageous, or selective? Is there ever a cure of sorts? Is it a kind of analogy to sin, or am I doing what estute college professors love doing: Over-thinking?
You're definitely not over-thinking it -- there is great symbolism in the disease.

It's actually not even a "disease" in the traditional sense. It's not contagious, it's not something you "catch" -- though one might perhaps say it's "selective".

The problem is that the world that the protagonist lives in is not his home. And as long as he is not in his home, he can never truly thrive. The closest analogy that I can come up to this is in His Dark Materials (the Golden Compass series), where though people can travel between worlds, they tend to get sicker when they are not in their birth world, and they just can't survive as well.

The summary statement that I was shooting for with this storyline was the communication of the idea that "this world is not my home", and no natural solutions are available to his problem, because anything that is natural to the world is foreign to his true nature.

--clint
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Re: Endemia: An experimental Christian-based game idea

Postby Realm Master » Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:08 pm

Steampunk... Good idea... its amazing... I LOVE IT!
haha. :D my mind went through like a zlillion awesome concepts, sorry.

And what I'm thinking are, as much as we designers/programmers are dismayed by it, Graphcis are becoming everything in a game. Cubes and spheres will only get you so far. Players are visual people, who enjoy visual stimulation. Simple will only work if its "stylish"

But to my point: I think it would be really cool if the desease had some sort of visual manifestation, to remind the player what is going on. some tumours lumps, some ozing black liquid, maybe a tentacle potruding out of a neck or something. thats what my mind's eye saw, anyway.
:)
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Re: Endemia: An experimental Christian-based game idea

Postby christo » Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:32 pm

This started out as a reference to a past idea, then seeing that it didn't fit the way I thought it did it became the start of an alternate plot idea.might have been able to take it further but I think I gave a decent summary.

This idea could possibly play well with the Babel-ution design I came up with a long while ago. The animal transformation being the visual representation of the disease. Um. just thought of something interesting. how about the protagonist being one of the few "without" the "disease". Maybe have the world such that having the "disease" is natural and possibly a part of life. This would provide a reason for the world to try and infect the protagonist with the "disease" and at first give the protagonist a reason to try to become infected(going to the various doctors). He would meet with some success in this venture becoming much like the world, but realizes that the form into which he formed himself to be more of the world is not what it is made out to be(notices deterioration of health or other aspect such as sanity). He then learns to be in the world but not of it(beginning of transition to spiritual being). He begins to shed the things of this world and seeks the truth and thus grows spiritually. As he learns more he longs for his true home.

One major aspect that this would yield is a view of the carnality of the world and how the world seeks to entrap us in the "crowd".
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Re: Endemia: An experimental Christian-based game idea

Postby ArchAngel » Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:00 pm

Steampunk? Super cool!
I

Well, Han, what I really like about your concept is how well you transferred spiritual parallels, in a story form, over to what could be fantastic and unique gameplay.

So what triggers this home sickness? It sounds like the protagonist has been there a while, or has he? Does he not remember where he comes from and where he is, and in a short time the story begins?
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Re: Endemia: An experimental Christian-based game idea

Postby Realm Master » Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:45 am

amnesia. :D classic. :P
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