market over crowding?

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launcher
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market over crowding?

Postby launcher » Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:24 pm

i've noticed that there are fewer and fewer game types and more and more generes getting ignored... everyones going after the magic, dark age monster themed games, or the first person shooters (halo copies).

airplane games are dissapearing, they are a lot of fun its like they stopped making the majority of them, and only an ace combat game ever 2-3 years which hasnt changed barealy at all in 10 years.

space games are in the land of 2nd and 3rd rate mmo's dominate the market.

Naval warfare is completly forgotten, there is so much potential in this area, sure there is a decent amount of 1700's pirates games but before and after there isnt much at all. could say its uncharted waters?

what happened to mech warrior, battle bots, robotech style games of having a human enclosed in a robot and blowing up its enemies, these games a decade or more ago where huge. got overdone, now i think its been long enough where people could come back to it and play them again. add in a story, add in research, some customization and you have a unique game with almost 0 competition. the idea your gonna barge in and unthrone warcraft with a few thousand dollar budget is insane.

command and conquere essentially just rereleases old games with update graphics and more outrageous units that look more and more retarded to be honest...

is it just me or is the quality in many games dropping to a below pathetic level made by the main stream game developers?
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Re: market over crowding?

Postby brownboot » Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:49 pm

is it just me or is the quality in many games dropping to a below pathetic level made by the main stream game developers?


It's just you.

The same sort of genre/fad patterns happen in movies and tv. Nothing new under the sun, etc.
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Re: market over crowding?

Postby Mene-Mene » Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:49 am

I'd say that the game industry is as it always has been, the difference is the marketting. Both the bad and the good games are better marketed now.

Yes, there are a lot of copycats, but that's always been the case.

Why did airplane games go away? Because there isn't a lot left to explore, they're hard to make, and they don't make much money because people don't need to buy one. Why buy a new upcoming flight simulator when all it's got is better graphics and a new plane? As far as combat, the gameplay simply isn't as interesting, it's pretty niche. Besides, there have been a lot of good games made, why don't you just fire up one of your old games or find one on ebay or something?

Space games have actually had some really good titles recently. Star Wars Battlefront 2, Mass Effect 1 & 2, and Eve online. Eve is an MMO, but it's hardly 2nd rate.

Naval warfare hasn't had many titles before the 1700s or after, true, but you can find those eras in many strategy games. Why not before? Because combat wouldn't be a whole lot of fun to play. The way a ship attacked as to ram it, that was te only method of attack. As for after, perhaps that is unexplored territory.

There are definitely some poorly made games out there. But there are also some gems. I remember Star Wars Knight of the Old Republic, I had difficulty doing anything but playing that game until I had finished it multiple times. I've already mentioned a few good, recent games... Crysis for example, while it might be FPS, the nano suit is rather unique and it is a rather big twist.
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Re: market over crowding?

Postby CPUFreak91 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:37 pm

launcher wrote:is it just me or is the quality in many games dropping to a below pathetic level made by the main stream game developers?

What do you mean? There are a ton of high-quality games coming or that have recently come out (take Braid, Airplanes, Left for Dead, Portal, Little Big Planet, etc).

The problem is games are getting more and more costly to make (at least on consoles) so the industry is sticking to the fads of the customers and investing their money into sequel, rather than gambling on a new style of game.

I think economics is filling this void. Indie devs have lower risks, and games like Penumbra, Caster, and a whole myriad of others have been experimenting with new unique games, albeit in a sector of the market that doesn't appear on GameStop shelves.
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Re: market over crowding?

Postby launcher » Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:12 pm

Star wars battle front 2 was released in 2005, i liked that game aswell. it was dissapointing they haven't come out with another, i played battle front 1, and they stopped just before a major break through which would have had it up with Halo, if they would have upped the bar again and made battle front 3. if they merged battle front 2 and allowed a little empire at war into the game, it would have been a monster game, that and simply allow the capital ships course be manipulated some what.

imagine battlefront 2 in a halo format? especially in outer space battles? with marine incursions on enemy ships, using the system to have npc's as wingmen and to form up groups to attack with it would be great. to use your anti aircraft frigates where you need them, it would be great. i really think they got the land battles down good. with limited sith and jedi use to 1 or 2 players at a time its a good formula. but they stopped short and blew there chance they had to make it huge, because at that time Halo was very new and it could have been competitive and dominated the PS3 the way Halo dominates the Xbox360.

aircraft games can be made that are liked by bigger segments, for example rouge squadron was big a decade or more ago. future aircraft would make things more likely to be a hit game.

ancient naval warfare extend way beyond ramming, there is greek fire, archers, balistas, solidiers to take other ships. it went way beyond ramming, but part of the issue is the armaments on some ships were not remembered by history. if you did a lot of research on ancient naval warfare it would be far more then just ramming.

mass effect is a good game? i heard it was really simple and it took 2 hours to beat, 5 if you went at a slower more casual speed.
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Re: market over crowding?

Postby launcher » Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:16 pm

about the space comment, space has so many aspects, there is non fiction, realistic fiction and what the heck is that type of fiction. games like sid mieres, alpha centari, outpost commander 2, wing commander, seem to be a thing of the past. lots of people thing well it became a niche market and thats why the players left. fundamentaly another issue was going on which was the units and buildings stopped having the believability factor. you know a future vehical ok maybe it hovers, has rocket pods, the appearance of being armored but what happened in the later games around 2002-2005 which killed the series and areas off was things getting stupid and over the top looking. when the research aspect didnt grow any, when the amount of unit types per game didnt grow and in some cases shrank. in tiberium wars the maps got smaller to acomidate better graphics, you had fewer unit types and out emerges a new super enemy which was totaly outrageous looking and didnt fit the game, with no decent way to counter the enemy. what was missing is content and new ideas fitting into the game. if you look at redalert 1 and compare it to every ea/westwood game since nothing has changed other then graphics, names and the story line. no matter what game you play there is an anti aircraft unit or 2, some air units and some ground units, maybe some naval units, and limited to no research. what i think happen is the players didnt quit playing these games because they no longer like it, i think it has more to do with them losing faith in the developers to bring in new ideas, and there skeptisism is justified. there are alot of things they could do, from upgrading infantry to a point where they are useful on the ground, after a few missions there obsolete and its a mechanized war all the way. when its not true, you get body armor, new gun types, concealment abilites, the list goes on and on. obsolete units in real life typically still have a purpose and are updated so they are relevant and useful, because towards the end of a game it is 1-3 units to build and the rest are obsolete junk, that unless its cheaper to build 50 obsolete units they are not worth making even if there given to you for free, you still disspose of them.

also the idea a game needs a huge production crew and needs to be perfect graphically and competitive with the other games is outright wrong. wildtangent and face book games have huge success and there graphics are sub par. but what makes them hits is easy interface, solid concepts and can easily play with there friends. games like evony, travin, and dark orbit are out there and tons of 2d and text based games exsists with tens of thousands of followers, if not more depending on the game. it's all about content, if you make a game with good graphics thats nice and will enhance whats there, but good graphics wont save a bad game concept. have any of you played a game you didnt like just because you liked the graphics? probably not for long. on the other hand i know most if not everyone here has played a game with no, to horrible graphics.
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Re: market over crowding?

Postby Mene-Mene » Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:40 pm

mass effect is a good game? i heard it was really simple and it took 2 hours to beat, 5 if you went at a slower more casual speed.

Certainly not simple, it is actually regarded as one of the best games of the decade. You'd be hard pressed to get through the elevators in the game in under 2 hours... :) (minor joke for those who played the game) I think my playthrough took me like 26 hours... I'm sure it'd take a lot longer if you bothered to do all the quests and played at a higher difficult. (I was at like 20% completion I expect) That's not even counting if you're a completionist trying to accomplish everything there is to accomplish.

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Re: market over crowding?

Postby launcher » Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:13 pm

Westwood did have a decent dose or realism and realistic fiction in the games they made though. Red alert 3 units are so weird and non functional it's not funny, they have a tank that looks like a snow mobile. as opposed to red alert 2 you can see some of the tanks as plausiable. Some units where right out of reality like the harrier jet and other units. Anyways its all screwed up now.

Just I wish there were more titles likes the games I used to love, e.g. Battlezone which was freaking great game. It was like an RTS in the form of an FPS, and for the time one of the best vehicular combat games.


So it would be like warzone 2100 then (also very old), checked battlezone out online, looks alright.

its the multiplayer aspect which is a big reason that FPS dominate the counsels. a new game coming out supposively allows 150-170 some people play in 1 game at the same time. If you look at Halo its going towards more vehicals, the more vehicals you add the more it turns into an RTS game, the next version will likely have more vehicals yet. I wouldn't be surprised if in Halo 4-5 if the game resembles more of a C&C game played in first person with a base commander cordinating the fights.

If you look at the games and see what direction they are going in its more complicated, more RTS element's added to them, and more multiplayer.

sorry about the spelling its hard to check it with the scroll box in here constantly bringing it up, and hiding what you're writing.
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Re: market over crowding?

Postby Mene-Mene » Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:45 pm

Westwood did have a decent dose or realism and realistic fiction in the games they made though. Red alert 3 units are so weird and non functional it's not funny, they have a tank that looks like a snow mobile. as opposed to red alert 2 you can see some of the tanks as plausiable. Some units where right out of reality like the harrier jet and other units. Anyways its all screwed up now.

Weren't you just saying that looks don't make a game? That you're happy to play a game with good gameplay even if the graphics are off? So long as the vehicles behave right, it doesn't matter what they look like, right?

its the multiplayer aspect which is a big reason that FPS dominate the counsels. a new game coming out supposively allows 150-170 some people play in 1 game at the same time. If you look at Halo its going towards more vehicals, the more vehicals you add the more it turns into an RTS game, the next version will likely have more vehicals yet. I wouldn't be surprised if in Halo 4-5 if the game resembles more of a C&C game played in first person with a base commander cordinating the fights.

It doesn't make any sense to put that many people in an FPS game. Even if it was economically possible, and technologically possible, it wouldn't work well with the established gameplay mechanics. I technically could play on a 16 player server in Halo, but personally, I prefer 4-6 people, at most 8. Furthermore, the idea of a player RTS is sorta ridiculous. Players aren't like the computer, they don't follow orders. And how are you going to decide who gets to be base commander? Put simply, it wouldn't work, and it doesn't make sense. Finally, the FPS is an established genre, why would they change the mechanics so drastically. Regardless of what they add on, (shields, power-ups, suit abilities) the basics are the same. If they wanted a Halo RTS, they'd do Halo Wars 2.

If you look at the games and see what direction they are going in its more complicated, more RTS element's added to them, and more multiplayer.

I wouldn't say more complicated. In fact, in my opinion, games are a LOT less complicated than they used to be. Remember Star Wars Tie Fighter? That was a LOT of controls... Now, space combat is a synch.
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Re: market over crowding?

Postby bugala » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:48 am

Furthermore, the idea of a player RTS is sorta ridiculous. Players aren't like the computer, they don't follow orders. And how are you going to decide who gets to be base commander?


Actually they do follow, when incentives are right.

For i have been playing this Call of Combat for years now as have many others too, despite the poor graphics, because of the commanding system that makes it just so good.


Shortly thing is that there are different types of rooms to play on. One is for games where you dont need to follow orders, Another one is where you need to follow orders, and then there are rooms where Army Group (same as clan in oher games) can play against other Army Group and in which you are supposed to follow orders again.

Thing is that you get PPs (Promotion Points) in game. Highest Ranking player (most points owning player - not this simple in reality, but for desriptions sake i say this way) in each side is the one who is commander and also the one who at the end of game (if hes still alive) decides who gets how many PPs.

If you didnt follow orders, you wont get any PPs.


If you dont get any PPs, that means you will be the bottom crap in command chain in each game for if you are higher ranking than someone else on your side, you for example can see everything they can see, but lower ranks wont see what higher ranks see.

Also, there are couple of better weapons in each map distributed at start, these naturally are given to higher ranking people, since they are supposedly better players. So if you have no PPs, you will never get any of those better weapons.

Also, when you are low rank, you never get to command anyone else.


Naturally there would still be problem of what if highest ranking player takes all the PPS to himself all the time. Well, then one of the players report of that guy, and they will check the records and notice it is true, and punish that player.


And if you are in Army Group naturally not following orders and making your side to lose because of that, will get you kicked out of your Army Group.


It is actually very fun system that i have been bit amazed no one have put it on any of the bigger games yet.

Might be that Call of Combat is just too small a game that no big developers had seen it.

For although it have gone for years now, user base have always been considerably small, although very loyal.
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Re: market over crowding?

Postby brownboot » Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:41 pm

Games like Call of Combat have been done many times.

Natural Selection (1&2), Savage (1&2), Arma (1&2&Expansions)... off the top of my head. I know I'm spacing a couple others.
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Re: market over crowding?

Postby launcher » Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:25 pm

looks dont make games, but what im reffering is to diliberate cartoonization or well they tried doing something, not sure what but they tried?

for example

http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/article ... 7_640w.jpg

this isnt graphics, its a screwy art design to better explain it. something like this isnt bad graphics its a screwed up concept.

http://www.file-extensions.org/imgs/app ... an-sun.jpg

this is an example of more realism, the vehicals appear functional, things are placed decently. the plane would have lost its aerodynamics in that 1 picture, it looked like a cartoon when that wasnt the goal. and if it is they are taking steps backwards.
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Re: market over crowding?

Postby brownboot » Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:47 pm

Picture #1 looks rad. Robot samurai around a zen garden fighting little robots with a big airship overhead? Yes please. The lighting is solid, the textures are unified and the characters are more than adequately detailed for multiple levels of camera zoom. I can tell who's on what team. This is EXTREMELY playable, and, therefore, succesful. Choices beyond this are simply a matter of taste.

Picture #2 looks fine, in a very dated way. I wouldn't consider it overly succesful alongside many of its contemporaries, maybe passable at best. Stacked up next to Arcanum, Baldur's Gate, the Diablos, or even Age of Kings and Alpha Centauri... Tiberian Sun looks very average.

this is an example of more realism


Which is NOT an example of better art direction. I don't think anyone would consider C&C "realistic" so why force the art in a direction the gameplay doesn't lend itself. That would result in a less unified product. Just like in film, the design must suit the story. But in game design gameplay is perhaps more of a story element an art director must consider than the story presented outside of gameplay.

Case in point, TF2.

and if it is they are taking steps backwards.


Art, regardless of format, is still subjective. And you're hideously uninformed opinion will not change that.
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Re: market over crowding?

Postby launcher » Tue Oct 26, 2010 12:22 pm

Art, regardless of format, is still subjective. And you're hideously uninformed opinion will not change that.


what are you talking about did we see the same pictures? in the tiberium sun picture we see plausiable realistic unit design. They use exsisting technology and incorperate it into something believavle, functional and in the realm of possobility. In red alert 3 we saw cartoon trash, unrealistic, unplausiable units, which makes me think they where stoned when making these unit concepts, or they had 3 years olds come up with the ideas using finger paints.

where is the extended life in a game like red alert 3? which game could a movie be made off of? and sell more then 10 copies? a good game can extend beyond the game realm and into other areas.

look at star trek, halo, Madden, call of duty, grand theft auto, and star wars, both rely upon realism and realistic fiction, and guess what there still succesful, the games why are they still making them and people buying them because its fun intresting and in some aspects can be real, when you look at it go yeah that looks like it can fly and be a cool war machine. Get a decent story and things come together and make a fortune. none of this "artist" stuff ever makes it into the mainstream public and makes a big following. Why because if it looks stupid, sounds stupid, it must be stupid. the 10 foot tall volkswagon class swords, 3 foot tall spikey hair isnt excepted by the main stream of people.

its not believable people roll there eyes go yeah right and walk away. sure you have final fanasy and other cult groups that fanitacally follow that stuff. have there dungeons and dragon games with people pretending to be wizards running around trying to cast spells on people.
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Re: market over crowding?

Postby Mene-Mene » Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:26 pm

You still haven't addressed that art is subjective. Personally, I'd rather play a game with a colorful, fun art style than one that takes itself too seriously. I'm also a guy who enjoys stuff realistically.

Yeah, the unit concepts are a bit outrageous, but, when you're playing a relaxed, unrealistic game, it's fun to have rocket launchers and shinobi, maybe even shinobi with rocket launchers. What I see isn't cartoon trash, but playful color.

where is the extended life in a game like red alert 3? which game could a movie be made off of? and sell more then 10 copies? a good game can extend beyond the game realm and into other areas.

Like it or not, it got between 80% and 92% in its reviews. It was pretty well critically acclaimed and is said to have an excellent naval system. Not all good games can extend beyond the game realm. Madden 2010 would make a lousy movie. Furthermore, it would probably be easier to make a movie out of red alert than tiberian sun.
I'm not saying that tiberian sun is any less good. It's also probably the better game. But fact of the matter is, fun is subjective.
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Re: market over crowding?

Postby Diroh » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:48 pm

well even though this is late im still going to post!
what you said about only space shoter games and dark age games are the only games that people buy now, its just that there just what people want now! i bet soon people will want robot themed games (thinking of a game idea right now.) where like you said "blow up enemies!" and then after that water themed games will be in! well i guess im taking longer to say what brownboot said! but if you want to put robot games back on just build a completly awsome robot game that leads to a string of robot games!
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