The Polarization of America

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christo
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby christo » Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:10 pm

I thought it would be a good point to mention some scripture here. I think [kjv]James 2[/kjv] applies here particularly verses 10-13 and 23-25(though reading the whole chapter gives better context).

On the post before me which came up while I was writing I would like to add the verse immediately after the quoted passage as it adds to the meaning. here it is [kjv]1 Corinthians 6:11[/kjv]
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ArchAngel
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby ArchAngel » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:40 am

Their argument, if i remember correctly, is that it's either an improper translation, which does happen in the Bible, or it meant something different then, like male prostitution or casual gay sex or something.

Regardless, I'm not going to argue that homosexuality is not a sin. I'm saying being an active homosexual does not make it impossible for you to be a christian. It can hinder your spiritual growth, but it does NOT nullify salvation.
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JeTSpice
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby JeTSpice » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:52 am

The litmus test isn't about who is sinning or not, but as Kris points out, what the Christian does when convicted by the Spirit to quit sinning. If the Christian obeys the Spirit, then Jesus is the person's Lord. If the "Christian" continues to sin, claiming that they are under mercy and not to be judged, then they will go to hell: Jesus is not their Lord.

For sure, I have many sins. I was just telling my wife that the more I progress in Christ, the "more and more" he convicts me. I've struggled with some sins for a couple weeks, and others for years. Jesus is faithful to complete us, even if we are not faithful (because it's for His glory, not ours), so we can expect growth and spiritual fruit in those who hear his voice.

I think it's good to be civil. There's a man I know who would go to the altar of the church I went to, and cry out to the Lord to be saved. People would help him, comfort him, reach out to him. He had been gay for years and years -- it was a deeply-rooted stronghold for him and he could not shake it by himself. I'd sit with him at Starbucks and we'd talk and have a good time. But when the conversation turned to his sexual exploits, I had to rebuke him. I was there to help, but not to enable. Homosexuality is a sin, and not to be tolerated. So, we understood each other. I moved from the area, so don't know if the Word took root in his heart or if it was just a passing fad for him -- I didn't know if he would stick by his choice for Christ when it was tested -- but this didn't prohibit me from being civil to him. But it's a sin -- people who are practicing homosexuals and think nothing bad of it won't inherit the Kingdom.
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ArchAngel
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby ArchAngel » Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:55 am

If the "Christian" continues to sin, claiming that they are under mercy and not to be judged, then they will go to hell: Jesus is not their Lord.
That's rough. When applied to any other sin, it bars us all out.

Can you honestly say that you have responded to every conviction from God?

And Jeff and Kris, can you continue in a sin without even knowing it?
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby JeTSpice » Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:42 pm

For sure, there's character qualities in me that God is not appreciative of, and as I progress in Christ, new ones I never thought of crop up. They're sins -- thoughts of rage or lust or covetousness or something. But until the Spirit has convicted me, I wouldn't know about them -- the heart is deceitful above all else and so I think nothing of the sinful thoughts I have and carry on. But when the Spirit convicts me of it, then I see that I've done wrong. The flesh wants to sin, but now the Spirit is against the sin in me. It's the same conviction that caused me to accept Jesus as Lord the first time. Like a re-affirmation, I say "yes" to the Lord again, and the Spirit helps to overcome the sin. I never overcome it. It's the Lord who does it. I'm willing to fight the flesh, follow the Spirit, and persevere. And the Lord says he is faithful to complete me until the day of Christ.

But if a person is not repentant -- if they don't want to change -- then Jesus is not their Lord. Just like a 2 year old might throw a tantrum, but then he is punished and he knows better and attempts to behave. He might struggle with the new emotions that develop in him -- wanting a new toy or to stay up late or do things that are against his parents' rules. It's like that: no good parent says "You've thrown a tantrum. Out into the cold with you and never return." But if the child is always misbehaving, then he is always punished.

The unforgivable sin is the one a person will never repent of. But for those of us in Christ, we give up our whole lives freely so that God may do what he wishes with us. By the time he is done, there will be nothing left of our old nature -- nothing of ourselves that we designed ourselves. It's rough, and sometimes it's two steps forward, one back. But in the end, the sheep and the wolves are proven by the response to the Shepherd.
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby samw3 » Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:49 am

1 John 2:3-6 wrote:We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
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ArchAngel
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby ArchAngel » Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:08 am

So how far can we veer off before we fall into the chasm of hell?
Because not one man on this board walks as Jesus did.
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samw3
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby samw3 » Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:44 am

The issue of course is not about how much you can do before you'll get thrown into hell, the issue is you're dealing with the God of the universe who is holy. Thankfully, he is very forgiving, but you'd better take him seriously.

There's an alternate moral to the parable of the man owing debt who was forgiven. No matter if you were forgiven your debt or not, if you tick off the king you'll end up in jail.
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ArchAngel
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby ArchAngel » Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:11 pm

The point of my question was not to see how many orgies I can attend and still make it to heaven.

The current discussion was whether it is impossible for not to have a gay christian who is not struggling against his homosexuality.
Do we have sins that we are unaware or do not believe to be wrong? I would think the answer would be a resounding yes, and if someone's answer is no, I suggest looking up Pride in the bible. (It happens to be more of a doosey than homosexuality)
Why does our sins get the pass and yet homosexuality becomes the mortal sin? Is it easier to condemn because we never had to deal with it? It is for me.
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby samw3 » Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:19 pm

I'm not seeing the connection between "active homosexual" and "struggling against his homosexuality". Those seem opposed. (This could also be applied to anything else too.. "active liar" vs. "struggling against being a liar")

The former sounds like it's a lifestyle of choice, the latter like it's occasional occurrences when the sinner falls.

My point is for situations where there is a lifestyle of a particular sin. A justification for it even. And I think that's JeT's point too.
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ArchAngel
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby ArchAngel » Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:36 pm

I'm not making a connection between those. I'm making a connection between our active sins and active homosexuality, aka active sins of someone else.

Now, as one grows, God will convict them of their different sins. This happens for us, we always just suddenly start pushing against all our sins. This concept doesn't apply to homosexuality?
Or what about people who truly believe homosexuality is not a sin, and the text in the Bible were improperly translated or fall under the category of women not wearing hats in church and such. I can't defend this view, but there are people who truly believe it.
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samw3
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby samw3 » Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:34 pm

I misread your post Arch. Let me try that again...

I do believe it's possible to have a ignorant sinner who is saved--even a practicing homosexual, or a pedophile, or a beastophile, or porn watcher even or any other sexual perversion or sin. God is merciful and if there's a relationship then together they will sort it out as a part of the process of sanctification.

I also believe there are those who are either delusional about their spiritual condition or have been lied to from the pulpit, and believe that Jesus is simply their get out of jail free card. They believe that they can decide what's really sin and what's not. This is the sin of the Garden of Eden and unfortunately they will have quite a rude awakening in the afterlife. But, that's another discussion I suppose.
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ArchAngel
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby ArchAngel » Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:50 pm

Agreed. A couple words and nothing more won't mean squat in the book of life.
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JeTSpice
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby JeTSpice » Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:40 pm

Edit.
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samw3
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby samw3 » Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:48 am

Huh? Is that a command?

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