The Polarization of America

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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby Matt Langley » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:21 am

ArchAngel wrote:liberalviewer. lol. Sounds like the epitomy of objective journalism.

But, that does sound like something Rush would say. I'd say it too.
You may not like the commentator, but it does have actual clips of Rush's interview. You aren't going to see heavy critiqued clips on youtube of Fox news from conservative, of course they'll come from liberals :)

I suggest you watch it, Rush was quite hilarious, he basically wanted to take credit for the conservative media movement, saying he was the first and them lumped Fox news in with those that followed. It was a very prideful and boasting statement, he wasn't trying to be humble and honest about a media bias, it was all about his pride. That's Rush for you though.
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby ArchAngel » Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:18 am

It was a very prideful and boasting statement,
You telling this to the guy who just said everybody is wrong except him? ;)
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby RockinRickOwen » Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:44 pm

Time "weigh in" on the issue here, or really, ignore the issue and just ramble...

I'm a conservative, but I can only take so much of Rush, O'Reilly or Beck. Hannity drives me up the wall.

My favorite guys on the right are the late, great William F. Buckley Jr, the still-alive Thomas Sowell, the rather brash Alan Keyes, the sober Stever Forbes, and last, and perhaps least, but not lost in the crowd--the human woodchuck known as Neil Cavuto.

This being said, I still think Rush takes a bum rap from the left in terms of "racism." That card gets played an awful lot by the liberals. I remember listening to a sports broadcast, and there was a debate on Rush's comments on a particular NFL quarterback. The QB in question was black, and while he certainly earned his spurs and improved as the seasons went on, he was initially an unknown quantity, and the primary reason for his being appointed to the pro-QB position was that he was black. Rush objected to this, not because he's racist, but because that's not how QBs should be selected. Any reasonable person would assert that QBs should be selected according to their ability, REGARDLESS of their ethnic background. Skin color has no bearing on athletic talent at all. What Rush was objecting to was the "affirmative action" approach of the NFL in that situation, which was in fact a VERY racist policy. It's like saying that black people can't compete with white people unless the standard is lowered, or they get a special favor. Which is stupid, because black people aren't inherently/genetically any dumber or less athletically talented than white people are.

Politics is getting pretty vicious for our time, but from what I've heard, it was even worse in the days of the founding fathers. Those guys REALLY went at it!

The polarization of our time seems to be that the left takes a moral and intellectual high ground by constantly stating in some way that their opponents are immoral and stupid. The right's accusations are that the left is immoral and WRONG. The left accuses the right of being "Fascist" and the right accuses the left of being "Marxist." But fascism as defined by Mussolini ("everything through the state, nothing without the state; everything for the state, nothing against the state,") is the equivalent of the Leninist/Stalinist version of Marxism, which cannot survive in a society without the government imposing it on the people. Further, and this has always bothered me about the left, I have yet to hear an adequate definition of the alleged fascism, even though that term is used so often.

My own main objection to the Left is that they seem to want to remove all painful consequences for poor decision making. Their substitute solution is to regulate behavior, and thereby "improve" society/humanity. But I don't want them to improve either. I think the best thing is retain or strengthen or revive the consequences. I don't think the Left is being generally immoral (they're trying to help people), but I do believe they're being very foolish. How can a person become wiser if there are no negative consequences for foolishness of any kind? How can we learn from our mistakes if we're prevented from making mistakes, or the consequences of those mistakes are euphemized or anesthetized? The irony here is that the Left deems itself to be far more intellectual than the Right, yet the Right seems to desire a course that increases understanding and wisdom.
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, "Will ye also go away?" Then Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that Thou art that Christ, the Son of the Living God." John 6:67-69
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby muadib » Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:46 pm

In my experience it seems like most of the news stations are at least slightly liberal-leaning anyway. However, Fox News is decidedly conservative leaning which makes it stand out from the others. And so I will get my news from both CNN and Fox so I can see both sides of the situation.
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby samw3 » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:32 pm

I think the polarization is due to the fact that when information flowing so freely is coupled with the "group think" or "mob" effect, you get less and less people who are in the middle on issues. Or the ones there don't want to talk too loudly since they'll get boos and hisses from all sides.
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby Mike » Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:44 am

muadib wrote:In my experience it seems like most of the news stations are at least slightly liberal-leaning anyway. However, Fox News is decidedly conservative leaning which makes it stand out from the others. And so I will get my news from both CNN and Fox so I can see both sides of the situation.
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I watch MSN and Fox or at least I used to - MSN runs all that old case crime stuff on the weekends - hard to catch news on it.

I do like Willie Giest on MSN - first time I saw him he was talking about Obama calling Oberman and Maddow and talking to them about their being to nice to Fox, and taking Fox to seriously. Giest made a comment that the last people that you need to talk to about being nice to Fox was us (ok I paraphrased that - what he actually said made me laugh so hard I almost dropped my breakfast)

A few years ago I did PC repair and work on machines from several local reporters, and my boss was no fan of anything Republican, and so as he and they joked - I heard them use the term on more than one location "anything legal to keep a republican from getting elected"
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby Matt Langley » Sat Dec 19, 2009 12:54 pm

samw3 wrote:I think the polarization is due to the fact that when information flowing so freely is coupled with the "group think" or "mob" effect, you get less and less people who are in the middle on issues. Or the ones there don't want to talk too loudly since they'll get boos and hisses from all sides.
Agreed.
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby JeTSpice » Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:21 pm

i agree, too, and with what Mike said at the beginning -- the internet is helping globalization, it's good points and it's bad.

i also agree with Capn -- fox is conservative and will give the news from that angle, and cnn and the big 3 are liberal and will give the news from that angle. I, too subscribe to both fox and cnn.

america is not probably going to go backwards and re-unite. even when a common enemy strikes our country, it seems the left embraces the enemy, elevating foreigner's rights to that of it's citizens, and even beyond.

I agree, too, with Rick, that "foolish" is a more accurate word than "wrong".

However, there are some planks of the left platform that are plain wrong. The Word is explicit with embracing, supporting, or participating in homosexuality -- that it is wrong, and that we are not to be fooled -- that people who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom. The Word does not say what happens to the people who support homosexuality. We know that it is foolish, if not wrong. Similarly, through a collection of scriptures, we have understanding that abortion and euthanasia, and other pro-death practices are wrong.

so, because of the distinct difference in the definition of "right" and "wrong" by both ideologies, and because of quicker communication, America will become more polarized.

I hope it doesn't.
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby JeTSpice » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:33 am

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2009/03/03/ ... -not-obey/

Oath Keepers is a non-partisan association of currently serving military, veterans, peace officers, and firefighters who will fulfill the oath we swore to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, so help us God.
Our oath is to the Constitution, not to the politicians, and we will not obey unconstitutional (and thus illegal) and immoral orders, such as orders to disarm the American people or to place them under martial law and deprive them of their ancient right to jury trial.
We Oath Keepers have drawn a line in the sand. We will not "just follow orders."
Our motto is "Not on our watch!"
If you, the American people, are forced to once again fight for your liberty in another American Revolution, you will not be alone. We will stand with you.
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby Matt Langley » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:54 am

However, there are some planks of the left platform that are plain wrong. The Word is explicit with embracing, supporting, or participating in homosexuality -- that it is wrong
Near those verses in the old testament about homosexuality are verses about not trimming the edges of your beard, I assume you don't trim your beard then also? Otherwise you are just as wrong.
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby Matt Langley » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:57 am

Our country was founded on freedom, religious freedom, and individual rights. To support that and then to say those that choose their own freedom to be homosexual and to limit their individual freedom because they express a different religious freedom is hypocritical plain and simple.

Believe it is wrong all you want but don't contradict the meaning and spirit of our country. The whole point was each person has individual freedoms despite their religious beliefs. That an individual could choose their religious beliefs and express and embrace their individual freedoms even if they were different and had different religious beliefs. To deny them is to contradict the constitution and the entire founding of our nation.
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby Lava » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:21 pm

Matt Langley wrote:
Near those verses in the old testament about homosexuality are verses about not trimming the edges of your beard, I assume you don't trim your beard then also? Otherwise you are just as wrong.
It appears you took what Jet said out of context; I believe that he was referring to the New Testament. Thus your argument that Jet should follow the whole Old Testament law instead of picking out homosexuality-- doesn't apply here.

Here's what he said in it's entirety:
JeTSpice wrote:However, there are some planks of the left platform that are plain wrong. The Word is explicit with embracing, supporting, or participating in homosexuality -- that it is wrong, and that we are not to be fooled -- that people who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom. The Word does not say what happens to the people who support homosexuality. We know that it is foolish, if not wrong.
When Jet said "inherit the Kingdom" it was a red flag to me that he was referring to the New Testament.

Here Galatians condemns "sexual immorality". Which I'm sure could include homosexuality.
[niv]Galatians 5:19-21[/niv] (NIV)

Here homosexuality is pointed out even more clearly.
[niv]1 Corinthians 6:9-10[/niv] (NIV)
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby muadib » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:05 pm

Matt Langley wrote:
However, there are some planks of the left platform that are plain wrong. The Word is explicit with embracing, supporting, or participating in homosexuality -- that it is wrong
Near those verses in the old testament about homosexuality are verses about not trimming the edges of your beard, I assume you don't trim your beard then also? Otherwise you are just as wrong.
I once read a reply from a Jewish Rabbi (http://www.jewishanswers.org, I think) about someone asking how to keep the "don't trim the beard" law. He said that you need to understand what "trimming your beard" meant at that time. Basically, men had beards and women did not. And so trimming your beard was akin to "dressing like a girl".

Hmm... I wonder why that would be put next to the part talking about homosexuality...

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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby JeTSpice » Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:03 pm

trimming the beard, and the other 600+ laws in the old testament (as summarized by the 10 commandments) are under the blood of Jesus. Those with the Spirit of Christ are no longer beholden to any of those laws -- they are completely fulfilled in Christ.

If that was all which was written, then homosexuals and those who passively enable it would be in the right.

As it is, the New Testament has re-established -- after Christ has fulfilled the law -- that some things (the laws of morality) are still considered sinful. Among them, homosexuality.

I have Christian friends who were once gay and now are not. For me, it's not a hatred against a group -- it's a righteous indignation about God's law, and a great, great joy when people of any background come to the Lord. It brings tears to my eyes.

Here's an article I agree 99% with:

http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-th ... gay-rights

Another "Is it possible to be a Gay Christian" :

http://www.gotquestions.org/gay-Christian.html


For the busy people, the last paragraph of that article:
Is it possible to be a gay Christian? If the phrase “gay Christian” refers to a person who struggles against homosexual desires and temptations – yes, a “gay Christian” is possible. However, the description “gay Christian” is not accurate for such a person, since he/she does not desire to be gay, and is struggling against the temptations. Such a person is not a “gay Christian,” but rather is simply a struggling Christian, just as there are Christians who struggle with fornication, lying, and stealing. If the phrase “gay Christian” refers to a person who actively, perpetually, and unrepentantly lives a homosexual lifestyle – no, it is not possible for such a person to truly be a Christian.
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby ArchAngel » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:42 am

Just like it's impossible for there to be another Christian who continues in a sin.

right.
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby muadib » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:38 pm

ArchAngel wrote:Just like it's impossible for there to be another Christian who continues in a sin without feeling the guilt of doing something wrong and does not confess it to the Lord, asking for forgiveness.

right.
Fixed.
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby ArchAngel » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:44 pm

Yeah, then we're all going to hell. I call shotgun.

There is no possible way that we can possible know and repent of all of our sins. If our salvation was dependent upon it, it would rest on our works (ability to detect one's sins and acting upon it) and not grace.
And while, yes, God does lay guilt on different sins, He doesn't do it all at once. It's a process of sanctification we walk through as we grow as Christians, not a prerequisite to salvation. And I can't think of one person who has completed "sanctification" and obtained perfection here on earth.
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby muadib » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:52 pm

ArchAngel wrote:There is no possible way that we can possible know and repent of all of our sins. If our salvation was dependent upon it, it would rest on our works (ability to detect one's sins and acting upon it) and not grace.
And while, yes, God does lay guilt on different sins, He doesn't do it all at once. It's a process of sanctification we walk through as we grow as Christians, not a prerequisite to salvation. And I can't think of one person who has completed "sanctification" and obtained perfection here on earth.
Right, but with such high-profile issues as homosexuality, I highly doubt that somebody would be ignorant that the Bible says it is a sin.
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby ArchAngel » Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:01 pm

We all have disagreements and I know many people who argued pretty well that it wasn't. I'm not saying I believe it isn't, I'm saying I can see how some Christians could and do.
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Re: The Polarization of America

Postby Lava » Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:53 pm

ArchAngel wrote:I know many people who argued pretty well that it wasn't.
But how do they account for 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 in their argument? That verse states it pretty clearly as a sin.

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