20mb zip?

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Leathel
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20mb zip?

Postby Leathel » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:59 am

This seems like it will be hard for a 3D game. Even the demo Torque examples run 30 to 50mb zipped.
popsoftheyear
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Re: 20mb zip?

Postby popsoftheyear » Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:05 pm

On the optimistic side you can fit a LOT into 20 MB compressed if you're careful and remember your constraints. Don't forget about procedural generation of textures and things as well. :)
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Leathel
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Re: 20mb zip?

Postby Leathel » Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:48 pm

I think 50mb is a little more achievable especially with a Torque product. An Atlas terrain is around 4mb compressed alone so that is pretty much out of the question to use.
popsoftheyear
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Re: 20mb zip?

Postby popsoftheyear » Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:10 pm

So don't use an Atlas terrain :) You can procedurally generate the terrain easily I assume. As for how to texture it, you can reasonably blend a few textures together and have a decent looking terrain. Google around and you'll find methods for this all over the place. Not only that, but in our case we're constrained to size so there are more options: 1) Procedurally generate the terrain textures themselves so you effectively have potentially infinite sized terrain at near 0 size (the ultimate in compression!) or 2) Use smaller textures.

Even if you don't have time to research how to procedurally generate decent looking textures and need these as pre-made resources, texture splatting with textures that are 256x256x24 for 4 terrain types + a detail texture will grant you whatever size terrain you want at around a MB. In fact, there are so many variables that one gets to play around with I really wouldn't say 20 MB is the limiting factor in this case, even uncompressed.

Anyway I pray I don't come off as criticizing... really hopefully this only encourages you!
(Of course whether you have time to research and develop these kinds of things or not given 2 weeks is a whole other issue. I have no idea what Torque is capable of out-of-box, and I can't say I'd personally try it with such a short time span).

God bless and good luck!
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Exodus
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Re: 20mb zip?

Postby Exodus » Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:33 pm

I read somewhere on one of those gaming communities where people made this crazy 3D game with insane graphics and it was only like 10kb in size! @_@ How do they do that??
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Exodus
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Re: 20mb zip?

Postby Exodus » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:32 pm

OK I have a question. Does the zip file have to be 20MB? or the actual game itself? Apparently it seems my actual game is 20.4MB which is .4MB over the limit, however, when I put it in a RAR file, it brings it down to 19MB

edit: scratch that. it's 28mb, I mean. I was looking at the wrong thing. Anyway, can someone point me to the rules about it having to be 20mb or less? I just need to figure out how to compress files better, I guess...
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Matt Langley
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Re: 20mb zip?

Postby Matt Langley » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:28 pm

20mb is small for a 3D game, that requires careful optimization of all assets, terrains, shapes, and definitely textures (easy culprit). Atlas can support terrains pretty small, so you don't have to have a big terrain if it's going to be a simple game. Most demos have more than 20 megs of textures alone, so it definitely is a challenge, though most demos try to show off a lot (and large terrains).

The Torque engines themselves are actually pretty small, a key tip as well is you can use upx to shrink down the .exe size (that's what we do with our released .exe's for Torque).

With that said I wish everything was as small as Torque (All Torque engines can typically get down to 5-7 megs or so before compression with all required files), I'm using Qt right now for some tool development for the Toolbox in Torque 3D (and even further for rebuilding the entire Torque toolbase). It's a powerful and widely used GUI toolkit... it's .dll's add up to about 10 megs on Windows and about 29 megs on Mac =x. This really makes me respect how small Torque can get and the discretion we've taken to keep it a small minimum.

Of course you also have to keep in mind that certain files compress better than others and I'm guessing the 20 megs is after compressed. (The 30 megs of Qt Mac frameworks compress down to about 10 megs, so a redeeming factor)

So I just installed TGEA 1.8.1, compressed the game folder of the Forge demo (for a full release I would compile out scripts and delete the .cs files and get a possible size win, though miniscule, and then I would delete the tools folder which is about 2 megs)... the zip file (using default Vista compression) is 15.7 megs. I did the same to the AtlasDemo and it's 17.5 megs.

I just realized that these include all of the source .max files too, so I could trim those down probably a good 5 megs after compression or so.

I did the same to the bigger of the demos, Stronghold... it is 80 megs or so before compression... 50 megs after. I then deleted all of the .max files (wouldn't want to release those anyways) and the duplicate textures used for the .max files as well as the .map files (source files for editing interiors) and then removed the tools folder and it's down to about 40 megs zipped 56 megs before zipped... the majority of that is in textures for the variety of trees and various skies (those could easily be trimmed down based on need).

So lots of ways to trim a Torque game down... Torque itself isn't large at all (the two d3d dlls + open al dll + torque.exe = 7.5 megs -> 4.6 megs compressed)

All of this is with built in vista compression, other apps can get things down a bit smaller I'd bet.
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Exodus
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Re: 20mb zip?

Postby Exodus » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:47 pm

Ok I just misread everything x_X I thought I was doing something wrong, but I was able to get it under 20 megs.
I think I've learned a new way to manipulate Winrar. LOL
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Mike
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Re: 20mb zip?

Postby Mike » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:55 am

We do have one competitor using dial up. We have about 20 entries.

At 20 Meg each that's 400 meg which is already 22 hours of downloads.

Also when we are done can someone zip them into one download - or better yet a bit torrent - or maybe separate torrents to help the one person I know of with dial up
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Mene-Mene
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Re: 20mb zip?

Postby Mene-Mene » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:50 am

I'd like to request adding .7z to the list of available compression, that would for the most part, delay the problem, it's both smaller and faster than any other compression I've run into.

If you want to be sneaky, technically, you could .7z it and then zip that.
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Leathel
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Re: 20mb zip?

Postby Leathel » Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:57 am

Well the 20mb limit is why I decided not to join. I don't feel it is an appropriate size for a quality 3D game.

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