SpeedGame Voting is Live!

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SpeedGame Voting is Live!

Postby CDNAdmin » Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:45 pm

Click here to go to the SpeedGame Voting page!

Thanks HanClinto for getting this setup again!
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Re: SpeedGame Voting is Live!

Postby bugala » Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:16 am

At least your list is still missing Achilds Ninja Game: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/333 ... n/Web.html

And it isnt available in voting list either.
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Re: SpeedGame Voting is Live!

Postby bugala » Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:14 am

I am writing this here not so much to criticise, since I think that regardless the way you do the decision upon winners, there are always some problems.

But couple of thoughts that came to my mind in this current voting method. And I am also putting them here, in hopes someone comments them and gives me some ideas on how to decide to do, for there are couple of games where I am wondering how should I do about them.

The problems I see.

1. I notice in DylenBriveras as well as TeamBIOs game, that I am giving both of them very high points in these categories, although I dont think neither of them is the winner game.

Espeically in TeamBIOs case I like to point this problem out. presentation of christian content, that is simply superb, creativity/innovation, that is superb too, fun to play. Well, that i would say perhaps excellent only. And then the polish. Luckily they have some problems there still, missing SFX and end of game being very unpolished and very unlcear. Due to their game being so short, I will punish them with extra punishment from those, and only decide, their polishing is good. Since graphics are good etc. but missing sfx and especially that END, minus and minus.

But lets suppose they got the SFX in place, and they got proper ending too, even if it is just "You completed the game" - text in end. Then I would have to say polish is superb too. And according to that pointing, their game would be my winner pick with almost full score, when its not.


2. How should some situations be treated. As pointed out in previous, if you make a short game and certain kind of game, it is much easier to polish it to the superb. But what about Rom12s game. I would say it is excellent polishing when you consider how tight jumps there are in that game etc. although from fun point of view i disliked it. But then again, they have some ultimate problems there, like you get the high jump, and get stcuk in caves.

So basically they did much bigger and better job, due to the nature of their game style, than TeamBIO did, but yet, TeamBIOs game feels polished (supposing it would have SFX and proper game complete), yet ROM12 feels like only good? And yet, I would think ROM12 did better job on that part, than TeamBIO did, which was mainly because TeamBIOs game style made polishing quite easy, but with this rating system, i would say that TeamBIO (with the before mentioned stuff) would rate Superb on polish, while Rom12 only good at max.


3. Lets take Sparkle now. Is that game polished or not? I would say, that it seems like it is polished. Hes level design perhaps wasnt everywhere as fun as you would hope it to be, but otherwise it seems somewhat polished in that regard. But especially when you take the graphics. Graphics are very clear, and they work just fine. They just might not be the best possible looking. Therefore, should I think hes graphics are polished to superb, or should i think hes graphics are mediocre just because he dont happen to be a brownboot? Or should i punish him by deciding his graphics polishing is mediocre, when he could have used ready graphics and get superb polished graphics?

Which takes basically my game into consideration as well. I simply used gamemakers basic graphic sets. Since they happen to be quite good, does that mean my graphics are superb? Or should it perhaps be loked how i used them, which for example I didnt use any flowers to decorate any areas and even my house are ugly boxes plus the towns dont really have any design. So are my graphics superb, or are they even the worse? And then again. I didnt have any graphics artist with me. So basically I was only concentrating on design point of game. If my design is good, then should i be punished from lack of graphics which i didnt have time to concentrate at, but just threw them in the place?

There are very hard questions and I am hoping someone to give some of their own thoughts so i can decide on some games how to rate them. I see expecially problematic the point that short game is easily polished to superb while big games get punished from there being much more smaller bugs. Like in Muadibs game, which in my opinion was teh best game this year, while I think hes christian content was basically superb, i do have to say that quite many of the answers to tought questions were unsatisfactory, so should i then punish him from adding so much christian content, that he couldnt properly answer them all anymore? And had he left those questions out, would it then make that game a better game from christian content point of view, by having less christian content?

By other words, if someone just says joh 3:16, it is superb, but if he wents on to in addition explain with his own words what that means to those who dont get it, then the christian content isnt as good anymore?
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Re: SpeedGame Voting is Live!

Postby brandav » Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:04 pm

I agree bugala that these are tough questions to answer. A game might be superb in its own right, but relative to other games it is not nearly as good. Under the current voting system, the games are rated on an individual basis, so the voter doesn't have the option to rank a game in comparison to another game. It might seem unfair to directly compare the games to each other, but ultimately that is what a competition is about.

For future years, I'd recommend making the voter rank the games from best to worst in each category. For example, if there are 10 entries, the game with the best graphics gets the highest rating of 10, and the game with the worst graphics (or the least best graphics, to put it nicely) gets the lowest rating of 1. This would force voters to make real and necessary comparisons between the games.

To make the comparisons more fair, the competition should have different divisions (i.e. Amateur, Intermediate, Expert) based on team size and combined experience level. For example, if a team of two developers enters the competition with a combined development experience of 20 years, the team is effectively an expert team. I think this is what Samw3 and RobinH were trying to do with the pre-voting disclosure thread. It was a nice attempt to encourage players to take experience levels and team size information into account when making the vote. The problem was that it was not mandatory, so it didn't guarantee all entrants would see or have time to answer the questions. Also, the voting system didn't force voters to take this sort of information into account.

Each division could have the same four categories that were used this year (christian content, fun, innovation, polish), and the number of places (1st,2nd,3rd,etc.) could be adjusted based on the number of entrants.
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Re: SpeedGame Voting is Live!

Postby bugala » Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:18 pm

Those experience vs beginner question is very hard one too. For example, Say Super Mario team comes to make a game next year, and makes a superb game, then there also joins this 6-year old beginner next year and he makes for example TemBIOs game, except complete one. Which one then should be rated higher? Obviously that 6-year olds effort is superior compared to nintendo teams, but on the other hand, that Nintendo teams product is perfect. Do we then vote excellent product as winner, or do we vote the superb perfect product as the winner.

Same comes with the team size thing. On the other hand you can instead of team size, use ready graphics, but then we once again get to sparkle. Since he decided to make the graphics himself, instead of using ready graphics (well he did use some ready graphics too to my understanding), do we now think hes graphics arent as good as someones who either had graphic artist, or someone who used ready graphics? That do we punish everyone who dont have a good artist enough, even they make the graphics themselves?

For I have to admit, when i think of the games, I easily start looking at the overall feeling of the game fro example from graphics point of view, which would mean, that if you made graphics yourself, and you are not that good, then i would feel them to be not very good graphics. If you went on to get ready graphics, which are very good ones, even if you just had to choose one picture from somewhere, i would already think, ah, looks good and polished. It is very hard to figure out a fair way to rate between own graphics vs having separate artist vs ready graphics.

By quick it comes to mind that own artist vs ready graphics is equal, but that is not true either. from ready graphics you can always pick the ultimate graphics, while own artist, perhaps he is just a beginner, and hence it once again would seem like ready graphics would always look better graphically, but is that fair? That someone picks graphics from ultimate collection, while other has separate beginner artist making hes not so good graphics and then at voting the guy who used couple of clicks to choose ultimate is considered excellent graphics, while the beginner artist is considered intermediate.

by the way, i havent voted yet as I am still trying to figure out how to make my voting decisions in some cases. I went on to vote already and checked through each game, but i didnt submit it, since i felt i have to think first before submitting as I felt there were some problems with the results in my own voting. Mainly that based upon my votes, the order of winners would be different than what i in reality think. Mostly they are not that far off, but they anyway are.
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Re: SpeedGame Voting is Live!

Postby brandav » Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:58 am

I hear what you're saying, bugala.

The divisions would solve this problem. The 6-year old beginner and the super mario team shouldn't be competing against each other. However, if they are, the super mario team wins hands down every time. It doesn't matter how much effort the 6-year old put into making the game, because it's just not as good as the mario team.

It was my decision to make all of Spark's graphics from scratch, because I wanted to give it a unique and personal feel. Since I consciously made that choice, I also took the risk that the graphics wouldn't look as good as other games.

The voting system is causing you so much trouble because it doesn't force you to make direct comparisons between games. It gives you room to rate the games subjectively. Therefore, a superb graphics rating in one game might not be the same as a superb graphics rating in another. That's just how it is.

Like I was saying earlier, the current system works well for individually rating games, but it doesn't completely make sense for comparing games in a competition.
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Re: SpeedGame Voting is Live!

Postby bugala » Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:07 am

Surprisingly, your comment might have solved me the problem of graphics rating.

Heres my current thought. All the time you have been talking of those beginners to pros series, I have at same time felt, that is right, but also, that it doesnt sound right. Im not going more to the reasons why i think it gives some other problems, but i point out couple anyway. Naturally one concrete problem is that there are so few participants, that there wouldnt be many in each category, and another is that there might be that some lower level one might make actually better game than higher level, and it might be that outsiders woudl be only interested in pro level games, and beginners would get ignored, like in any todays sports, local small teams dont interest people, only olympics.

Anyway. what I startd thinking was the real life. If you make a game, commercial, or non commercial, you are fighting against evey other game there available. Wether you made graphics yourself or not, they dont care about it when they are deciding which game to play. Similarly, when they are about to buy a game. They are not going to pay 50 euros from lousier game, just because it was done by beginner, when they can choose to pay 50 Euros from Super Mario.

Hence, when you join a competition, that competition should be in most sense be similar. You fight against the other games. If you use separate artist, or not, is your own choice. As you put it, your own risk. Yes, it can also be a possiblity that you are not able to form a team, but if youa re not able to form a team and make a game that is not as good as the rest on the market, you cant start whining that people should buy my game even it doesnt look as good as the rest, because i am not able to form a team.

By otherwords, if you are not top notch artist, you sort of lose the graphics battle already, but it is a choice you have to decide yourself, and then you just compete against yourself. For example, previous year you perhaps got mediocre graphics, and this time good rating already. Means you got forward and next year you try to get even better rating with your own graphics.

It is sort of cruel, but when I think it by thinking the reality of game world, thats how it should go when deciding which game is best. And naturally when beginner gets into competition, he shouldnt aim at winning beginners category, but he should aim at getting higher position each year in that competition. That maybe first year you just get feedback, being last, but next year you are already only third last, and then you become close to medal position etc. The aim that beginner should be able to win is wrong, since he wouldnt win in real world anyway, so why should he be able to win in this one either?

And I would think that only situation when it matters wether graphics were made by one man team, graphics art having team, or ready graphics, would be when they are about equally good to each ohter and you are trying to figure out which game to decide as a winner. In that case you would give most points to the one working alone, then the one with graphics artist in team and last, the one who used readily available graphics, and actually most last, peopel like me, who didnt even bother to find ready graphics, but just used what was already available in their game maker software, hecne not realyl taking any effort in graphics.


however, I also realised couple other factors to graphics than just if they look good. 1. Do they do their job. For example your game is very clear, while B-Os game has very good graphics basically, but I couldnt quite figure out when seeing top of that tree, where is it actualyl going to hit me at. Similarly skiing feels slightly clumsy, which is also to do with gameplay, but in this case i would put it to graphics problem.

Idea being that if you can move your character 90 angle, and if turning happens very slow, then you need more inbetween graphics, while if it moves very fast, you maybe need only 1 picture between those two edge positions. And although it can be fixed by altering game play (making turning faster), if you decided to leave it to slower, then you need more graphics.

I think I will use this as my rule of thumb when deciding about graphics and many others. Unless someone points out something about this thought of mine that makes me change my mind.



However, I still have the problem of short game vs bigger game. How should i treat them. Real world example doesnt work in this case so well. TeamBIOs game could only be sold as iphone game, and even then the 0.99 might feel bit harsh. While ROM12s game could well be sold even 2.99 on iphone, and made a computer version and sold for 4.99. That would show that ROM12 would be better (although actually in this case i think TeamBIOs game vs ROM12 game in current states - TeamBIO being better).

I wonder how to solve that problem.


Basically I am actualyl thinking about the voting thing, that perhaps it is not so much that we should be ranking each game compared to others (which would be one way to do it), but perhaps in addition select which games are our top chocies for winners. Since right now problem is that if there is game, that is perfect in every other regard, but it has bad graphics, it wouldnt win, even in reality it might be absolutely great game.

Take for example Civilization 1, while it was highly regarded game when it came out, many magazines were complaining about its graphics being substandard, which was true. But despite the lack of beautiful graphics, it was still amazingly great game of its time. And this would be true to many other strategy games of that time as well. Or lets take those Nethack, Moria etc. games where all the graphics are made with letters. Graphics are poor, but those games are great. For long time they were in many regards beating other games. Or someone makes a text game. With current voting, you can never win this competition if you make a text only game, since graphics would be poor.

I would also think it might be good to have something like "How good a job this did". meaning that for example in Sparkling, sure, the graphics arent that good, but he did pretty good job on them, since they are very clear etc.


Any more thoughts to help me settle the short vs long game problem?
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Re: SpeedGame Voting is Live!

Postby brandav » Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:43 pm

bugala wrote:All the time you have been talking of those beginners to pros series, I have at same time felt, that is right, but also, that it doesnt sound right. Im not going more to the reasons why i think it gives some other problems, but i point out couple anyway. Naturally one concrete problem is that there are so few participants, that there wouldnt be many in each category, and another is that there might be that some lower level one might make actually better game than higher level, and it might be that outsiders woudl be only interested in pro level games, and beginners would get ignored, like in any todays sports, local small teams dont interest people, only olympics.
I see your points.
bugala wrote:Basically I am actualyl thinking about the voting thing, that perhaps it is not so much that we should be ranking each game compared to others (which would be one way to do it), but perhaps in addition select which games are our top chocies for winners. Since right now problem is that if there is game, that is perfect in every other regard, but it has bad graphics, it wouldnt win, even in reality it might be absolutely great game.
The ranking system should actually solve this problem. Using my same previous example, let’s say there are 10 game entries and the four same categories (Christian content, gameplay, polish, innovation). In the situation you suggested, the game which is perfect in every regard except graphics should be rated highly on all the categories except for polish (graphics). Adding up the game's rating in each category would create a total score that should still be high enough to win. The low score in graphics shouldn’t be enough to prevent this, unless other games had a similar ranking with better graphics or the game's graphics were just absolutely awful. If another game got a higher overall score, then what was the reason for thinking that the originally chosen game was the best one? The system should be able to decide, based on the comparisons in each category, which game is the overall best game.

An additional way to handle the problem is to make the categories weighted, so the other categories are worth more points than the graphics category.


As for the longer vs shorter problem, a longer game doesn't necessarily mean a better game. A game might initially have fun gameplay, but then it gets boring after awhile. In this case, a shorter game is better. Similarly, if the gameplay is mediocre, simply making the game longer isn't going to change that.

It's hard to punish speedgames for being too short, because the developers only have so much time to put it together. You can wish the developers made a longer game, but ultimately the current version of the game is what you have to vote on. Yes, maybe the game should have been longer (or even shorter), but was the game still fun while you were playing it? Were the graphics still clean and clear? Did the game still have a good presentation of Christian content? That is what we should focus on when we're voting.

If the game was just way too short (and it's a very subjective and personal opinion), I would probably just take a point off from whatever score I was going to give them for polish (edit: or gameplay) and leave it at that.
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Re: SpeedGame Voting is Live!

Postby bugala » Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:00 pm

Well, again got a thought from your thoughts.

But have to say, that I think your idea of having same categories, but comparing them against each other, while i dont see it completely problem free, It probabaly would be most accurate reasonably doable way of getting order set pretty much right.

For basically I think even in that one it can happen that for example a text game wouldnt win even it otherwise should, since you would always put its graphics to the bottom, and that could damage it a lot. Although, your idea of weighing graphics less could perhaps solve that problem.

As example, lets take problem situation that could happen (although i think is unlikely), therea text game, everyone think it is best in everything but graphis its worst. And on top of that, It is clearly better than even the second on each other category.

Then the second happens to become second in everything, but in graphics it becomes number 1. Now this second game would won, even everyone thinkgs the text game was actaully much better. But, I think that kind of situation is quite unlikely to happen, and I would guess that most, or even almost all, of the time, it would work.


But that shorter versus longer. It was interesting thought that you dropped one point from polish for example, and that gave me a thought. That I guess it would somewhat go so, that the rating for short game, should be higher, since there is less to do.

Like Rom12 vs TeamBIO example again. Yes, TeamBIOs graphics are pretty polished (when you forget the end especially), but on the other hand, considering they had only that one picture (that is formed from several) to make, it needs to be better than ROM12s, that had more graphics into it.

If its short, then requirements are more. It is like a 10 page story, vs 1 000 page story. You can afford there being even boring parts in 1 000 pages, but you cant have boring stuff in 10 pages.

Similarly, although selling price compensates the shortness, by shorter being cheaper, there is limit to that compensation as well. You buy teamBIOs game for 0.99 cents, especially if you already saw a trailer about it, say MACKs video which already shows almost half the game how to solve it, and you do feel cheated.

Have to give bit more thought to this, but I guess the higher standard for shorter would probably be muy solution. That if ROM12 and TeamBIO, both look the same, then ROM12 is regarded as more polished or better graphics having.

But it still makes me wonder how to treat Muadibs christian content part. Basically I think it is superb, since it is in the mechanics, but I still think answers to some tough questions were unsatisfactory. I am not sure wether to punish him from that or not. Ot goes on to that joh 3:16 vs also explanation idea that i mentioned in previous post. Since he added more christian content, that wasnt top notch content, how much should i punish him from that, or should it go to the margin of bigger vs shorter, in this case since its bigger book, it can have couple of boring pages inside it?
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Re: SpeedGame Voting is Live!

Postby muadib » Mon Aug 04, 2014 11:58 am

I think the way I treated longer vs. shorter had to do with how I felt at the end of the game.

Did the short game make me feel like I want more or that I felt cheated there wasn't more? I good performance (like when I play violin) and a good game leaves the player wanting more, not wishing it was over already. With a shorter game I think you need to pack as much satisfaction from playing as you can so the player can justify the short experience.

Does the longer game hold my interest to the end or I just got too bored and had to force myself to complete it. With longer games, done right, the "boring pages" can be used to make the exciting parts even more exciting because of the relative nature of excitement. As long as you don't get too bored during the boring parts and the exciting parts make it worth it.

Now, if you have 2 games done right to a similar degree, my personal opinion would favor the longer game because I have more of an emotional attachment to it.

Edit - Not that I'm biased toward my own game or anything :D
Kris Murray - Aspiring Game Developer
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Re: SpeedGame Voting is Live!

Postby brandav » Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:20 pm

bugala wrote:But it still makes me wonder how to treat Muadibs christian content part. Basically I think it is superb, since it is in the mechanics, but I still think answers to some tough questions were unsatisfactory. I am not sure wether to punish him from that or not. Ot goes on to that joh 3:16 vs also explanation idea that i mentioned in previous post. Since he added more christian content, that wasnt top notch content, how much should i punish him from that, or should it go to the margin of bigger vs shorter, in this case since its bigger book, it can have couple of boring pages inside it?
It’s a personal opinion whether the answers were unsatisfactory or not. Also, does a game have to answer a tough question completely? Maybe approaching the topic and simply attempting to provide an answer would be enough to spark a new thought process in the mind of the player. The Socratic method supports this approach. Maybe the best way of teaching isn’t to provide all the answers, but to stir a critical thinking process in the player’s mind.


previous post about john 3:16:
bugala wrote:By other words, if someone just says joh 3:16, it is superb, but if he wents on to in addition explain with his own words what that means to those who dont get it, then the christian content isnt as good anymore?
Our attempts to interpret the Bible completely and accurately will always fall short, but that shouldn't stop us from trying to interpret the Bible or share the Gospel with others. If we are honestly seeking God and have a real connection with Him, then each interpretation holds a part of our own spiritual experience with God and His Word. You could say that this detracts from the pure, absolute meaning of the Truth. But, since the absolute meaning isn't always clear, you could also say that it enriches God’s Word as a real, life-changing source of Truth that works powerfully and dynamically in people’s lives.
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Re: SpeedGame Voting is Live!

Postby bugala » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:06 am

That was hard, but with help from other peoples comments, thanks from them. I was able to do my voting now.

Finally I was so concerned about graphics all the time, when i finally realised that actualyl there is no graphics category, but "Polish". This is much better than graphics. it gave me a chance to give much higher points for Brandavs "Spark" game.

I think after thinking everything hard, my points now quite well reflect the actual ranking of the games that i would have chose to rank them. For example Muadibs game has most points now. Actually only 2 short from perfect. What comes to the christian content question part i was pondering with, i decided to go with superb. Not so much that i came to conclusion about how to treat the not satisfying answers, but rather that since i couldnt come to conclusion, i decided to manipulate the ranking by giving that one point more instead of taking it away, to reflect better how i felt about his game, which I rank as the best entry.
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Re: SpeedGame Voting is Live!

Postby ArchAngel » Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:27 pm

Hey guys, congrats on all your speedgame submissions!
Q.E.D.

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